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	<title>Comments on: Whether Left or Right: An Influence on Cambodian Nationalism</title>
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		<title>By: Pineapple</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>Pineapple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-180</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve read that very good post you linked to, before.

&quot;So what’re you saying, that your family isn’t white trash with a fear of the other?&quot;

Nah mate, sort of a yellow colour, but goes darker when caught by the sun.  I just turn red.

Yes, concerned parents protesting that local authorities had decided to secretly place convicted child sex offenders on social housing estates.  Until uncovered by the tabloid press.  Imagine, the brain-control waves being beamed out from Wapping.   One of the photos taken at what appears to have been a peaceable protest, had an Asian family at the head of the crowd of families, which must have caused some annoyance to certain people.  But let&#039;s be straight here.  If the inarticulate masses are unable to know what is best for themselves, being as they are, uneducated, narrow and full of irrational prejudices, then surely such people as misunderstood sex beasts could be accommodated in the nicer parts of town.  The liberal middle class types living in these areas would be able to come up with &#039;progressive&#039; solutions to the problem of what to do with known sex offenders in the wider public.  Instead of dumping them on housing estates, without bothering to tell the residents.

Mrs Reid?   She&#039;s one of my favourite pieces of &#039;meat.&#039;  She&#039;s going grey too, and looks nice with it, when she doesn&#039;t colour her hair.  All this  talk of objectification reminds of that band formed out of Big Black, controversially named Rapeman.  Some campus-style feminists  (cushioned middle class &#039;mummy and daddy wouldn&#039;t buy me a pony&#039; types) would disrupt their gigs, heckling and so on.  I was told that Steve Albini once retorted at one of these demos, when the band played in the UK, that he couldn&#039;t make out what they were saying to him, asking one woman if she had a cock in her mouth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve read that very good post you linked to, before.</p>
<p>&#8220;So what’re you saying, that your family isn’t white trash with a fear of the other?&#8221;</p>
<p>Nah mate, sort of a yellow colour, but goes darker when caught by the sun.  I just turn red.</p>
<p>Yes, concerned parents protesting that local authorities had decided to secretly place convicted child sex offenders on social housing estates.  Until uncovered by the tabloid press.  Imagine, the brain-control waves being beamed out from Wapping.   One of the photos taken at what appears to have been a peaceable protest, had an Asian family at the head of the crowd of families, which must have caused some annoyance to certain people.  But let&#8217;s be straight here.  If the inarticulate masses are unable to know what is best for themselves, being as they are, uneducated, narrow and full of irrational prejudices, then surely such people as misunderstood sex beasts could be accommodated in the nicer parts of town.  The liberal middle class types living in these areas would be able to come up with &#8216;progressive&#8217; solutions to the problem of what to do with known sex offenders in the wider public.  Instead of dumping them on housing estates, without bothering to tell the residents.</p>
<p>Mrs Reid?   She&#8217;s one of my favourite pieces of &#8216;meat.&#8217;  She&#8217;s going grey too, and looks nice with it, when she doesn&#8217;t colour her hair.  All this  talk of objectification reminds of that band formed out of Big Black, controversially named Rapeman.  Some campus-style feminists  (cushioned middle class &#8216;mummy and daddy wouldn&#8217;t buy me a pony&#8217; types) would disrupt their gigs, heckling and so on.  I was told that Steve Albini once retorted at one of these demos, when the band played in the UK, that he couldn&#8217;t make out what they were saying to him, asking one woman if she had a cock in her mouth.</p>
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		<title>By: beer and sandwiches</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-179</link>
		<dc:creator>beer and sandwiches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-179</guid>
		<description>OK, away from the telly or internet you might like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.medialens.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2617&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; then.  A serious newspaper.  I remember the middle class hate fest over the tabloid-linked paedophile protests on that housing estate back in 2007.

The idea of a working class, without erroneously dividing it into differing sections of interest and novelty depending on skin colour is something which frightens white middle class people.  And you know as well as I do that the UK, England especially has one of the highest interracial relationship rates in the world, most of these occurring among the uncouth masses.  It&#039;s higher up the social ladder that things become hideously white.

So,

&quot;although I am indeed a white prole with rough hands, my partner isn’t white, and neither is my son.&quot;

what&#039;re you saying is that your family isn&#039;t white trash with a fear of the other?

She is sexy though eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, away from the telly or internet you might like <a href="http://www.medialens.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2617" rel="nofollow">this</a> then.  A serious newspaper.  I remember the middle class hate fest over the tabloid-linked paedophile protests on that housing estate back in 2007.</p>
<p>The idea of a working class, without erroneously dividing it into differing sections of interest and novelty depending on skin colour is something which frightens white middle class people.  And you know as well as I do that the UK, England especially has one of the highest interracial relationship rates in the world, most of these occurring among the uncouth masses.  It&#8217;s higher up the social ladder that things become hideously white.</p>
<p>So,</p>
<p>&#8220;although I am indeed a white prole with rough hands, my partner isn’t white, and neither is my son.&#8221;</p>
<p>what&#8217;re you saying is that your family isn&#8217;t white trash with a fear of the other?</p>
<p>She is sexy though eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Pineapple</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Pineapple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-178</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I think that&#039;s a different type of meejah.  But I do love the BBC trade union cliche by the way.  Very working class.   And we all know how balanced and impartial they are when it comes to reporting industrial action.  For example, there was no mention of those dirty proles displaying Italian-language placards,  calling for solidarity between workers during that wildcat strike at the  Lindsey oil refinery.  Summat about &#039;Eye-Ties&#039;  was mentioned though, in the interests of balanced reporting. Do you remember that god-awful &#039;White&#039; season of programmes they did a while back?  They just can&#039;t help themselves.  Yep, thanks for the lecturing me on views I don&#039;t hold, but deciding for me without my consultation that I do.  This bollocks top-down forced multi-culturalism where the liberal middle class thinks it&#039;s okay that you&#039;re poor, but don&#039;t mention class and instead have lot&#039;s of identity politics because someone with a darker skin tone or a funny-sounding name is quite the novelty at parties.  This set-up doesn&#039;t seem to have a place for my family, considering that although I am indeed a white prole with rough hands, my partner isn&#039;t white, and neither is my son.  And sadly, it isn&#039;t a question of if, but rather when I&#039;ll have to explain to him what racism is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I think that&#8217;s a different type of meejah.  But I do love the BBC trade union cliche by the way.  Very working class.   And we all know how balanced and impartial they are when it comes to reporting industrial action.  For example, there was no mention of those dirty proles displaying Italian-language placards,  calling for solidarity between workers during that wildcat strike at the  Lindsey oil refinery.  Summat about &#8216;Eye-Ties&#8217;  was mentioned though, in the interests of balanced reporting. Do you remember that god-awful &#8216;White&#8217; season of programmes they did a while back?  They just can&#8217;t help themselves.  Yep, thanks for the lecturing me on views I don&#8217;t hold, but deciding for me without my consultation that I do.  This bollocks top-down forced multi-culturalism where the liberal middle class thinks it&#8217;s okay that you&#8217;re poor, but don&#8217;t mention class and instead have lot&#8217;s of identity politics because someone with a darker skin tone or a funny-sounding name is quite the novelty at parties.  This set-up doesn&#8217;t seem to have a place for my family, considering that although I am indeed a white prole with rough hands, my partner isn&#8217;t white, and neither is my son.  And sadly, it isn&#8217;t a question of if, but rather when I&#8217;ll have to explain to him what racism is.</p>
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		<title>By: beer and sandwiches</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-176</link>
		<dc:creator>beer and sandwiches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-176</guid>
		<description>&quot;Has Rhoda violated you again with her razor-sharp wit?&quot;

&lt;em&gt;Oi &lt;/em&gt;Pineapple!  Here&#039;s some middle class media totty:


&lt;object width=&quot;425&quot; height=&quot;344&quot;&gt;&lt;param name=&quot;movie&quot; value=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/v/fgbqgegodUk&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name=&quot;allowFullScreen&quot; value=&quot;true&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name=&quot;allowscriptaccess&quot; value=&quot;always&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;embed src=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/v/fgbqgegodUk&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1&amp;rel=0&quot; type=&quot;application/x-shockwave-flash&quot; allowscriptaccess=&quot;always&quot; allowfullscreen=&quot;true&quot; width=&quot;425&quot; height=&quot;344&quot;&gt;&lt;/embed&gt;&lt;/object&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Has Rhoda violated you again with her razor-sharp wit?&#8221;</p>
<p><em>Oi </em>Pineapple!  Here&#8217;s some middle class media totty:</p>
<p><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fgbqgegodUk&#038;hl=en_GB&#038;fs=1&#038;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fgbqgegodUk&#038;hl=en_GB&#038;fs=1&#038;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></p>
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		<title>By: Pineapple</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Pineapple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-167</guid>
		<description>&quot;...ultimately they were looking to drag the country out of the Stone Age.&quot;

I agree with your comment.  The Pol Pot group did not suddenly appear from the jungle to fulfil some ancient prophecy, or act like some weird abomination, independent of the conditions that helped create their political outlook.  Bolshevism, or variations of it transmitted by the French Communist Party or ICP, may have provided a political &#039;structure,&#039; of Party and organisation etc, but also aside from interpretations of Maoism – the peasantry as revolutionary agent through warfare, mental reform of the individual and associated efforts to close the social gap between intellectual and worker etc – you&#039;re very much correct in home-grown factors importantly helping to shape what they became.  And their turning to ultra-nationalism has to be viewed not only in the light of conflict and competition with the Vietnamese Communists, but placing it into the context of Sihanouk&#039;s anti-democratic Sangkum era.  There is still, as you&#039;ve already said, some idea that Cambodia was some tranquil, harmonious  place destroyed by a  murderous Khmer Rouge watershed, with little thought given to understanding their origins.  Nationalism is evident no matter the political colouration, the blunt Lon Nol with his mumbo-jumbo &lt;em&gt;Neo-Khmerisme&lt;/em&gt; also holding close dear dreams of establishing some new Mon-Khmer empire, or at least to transform Cambodia into an important regional power.  It is probably true that the DK leaders knew of the sophisticated irrigation system built by slave labour under the Angkor Kings, enabling up to three or more harvests per year, and which was a key to the success of the old Empire.  But with their attempt to build their own country-wide irrigation system under centralised state control for the purposes of mass rice production, they didn&#039;t want to take society backwards, but to surpass that more glorious Khmer past.  Similar to what you put above,  the significance of Angkor is misunderstood, instead of being the intellectual rallying point for a new nascent nationalism.  After all, Thanh the moderniser&#039;s first newspaper evoked the memory of Angkor in its title.

As for Kiernan&#039;s Samlaut study, then you may be able to get hold of a copy by ordering it through the Monash University website.  I think they still sell copies from their working papers series.  If not, then if I get a decent scanner bought in the new year, then I can make a copy, convert into PDF format and send it to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;ultimately they were looking to drag the country out of the Stone Age.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with your comment.  The Pol Pot group did not suddenly appear from the jungle to fulfil some ancient prophecy, or act like some weird abomination, independent of the conditions that helped create their political outlook.  Bolshevism, or variations of it transmitted by the French Communist Party or ICP, may have provided a political &#8216;structure,&#8217; of Party and organisation etc, but also aside from interpretations of Maoism – the peasantry as revolutionary agent through warfare, mental reform of the individual and associated efforts to close the social gap between intellectual and worker etc – you&#8217;re very much correct in home-grown factors importantly helping to shape what they became.  And their turning to ultra-nationalism has to be viewed not only in the light of conflict and competition with the Vietnamese Communists, but placing it into the context of Sihanouk&#8217;s anti-democratic Sangkum era.  There is still, as you&#8217;ve already said, some idea that Cambodia was some tranquil, harmonious  place destroyed by a  murderous Khmer Rouge watershed, with little thought given to understanding their origins.  Nationalism is evident no matter the political colouration, the blunt Lon Nol with his mumbo-jumbo <em>Neo-Khmerisme</em> also holding close dear dreams of establishing some new Mon-Khmer empire, or at least to transform Cambodia into an important regional power.  It is probably true that the DK leaders knew of the sophisticated irrigation system built by slave labour under the Angkor Kings, enabling up to three or more harvests per year, and which was a key to the success of the old Empire.  But with their attempt to build their own country-wide irrigation system under centralised state control for the purposes of mass rice production, they didn&#8217;t want to take society backwards, but to surpass that more glorious Khmer past.  Similar to what you put above,  the significance of Angkor is misunderstood, instead of being the intellectual rallying point for a new nascent nationalism.  After all, Thanh the moderniser&#8217;s first newspaper evoked the memory of Angkor in its title.</p>
<p>As for Kiernan&#8217;s Samlaut study, then you may be able to get hold of a copy by ordering it through the Monash University website.  I think they still sell copies from their working papers series.  If not, then if I get a decent scanner bought in the new year, then I can make a copy, convert into PDF format and send it to you.</p>
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		<title>By: lb</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>lb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-166</guid>
		<description>As for the KR&#039;s overwhelming stress on personal and insitutional moralism, I always wondered if one element of it was a reaction against the way the Khmer people had been culturally defined by the colonial power within the artificial construct of Indo-China: the  Khmers were usually depicted by the French as indolent, pleasure-seeking Buddhist yokels. Having received most of their education via the French, the KR leadership must have been exposed to an awful lot of this kind of stuff. A hardworking and austere lifestyle was no doubt an antidote to the sort of patronising stereotypes that had kept the peasantry in their place for decades - something Thanh seems to have recognised early on, as your original post points out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the KR&#8217;s overwhelming stress on personal and insitutional moralism, I always wondered if one element of it was a reaction against the way the Khmer people had been culturally defined by the colonial power within the artificial construct of Indo-China: the  Khmers were usually depicted by the French as indolent, pleasure-seeking Buddhist yokels. Having received most of their education via the French, the KR leadership must have been exposed to an awful lot of this kind of stuff. A hardworking and austere lifestyle was no doubt an antidote to the sort of patronising stereotypes that had kept the peasantry in their place for decades &#8211; something Thanh seems to have recognised early on, as your original post points out.</p>
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		<title>By: lb</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>lb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-165</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve yet to lay my hands on Keirnan&#039;s study of Samlaut, but it&#039;s on my list of texts to get hold of soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve yet to lay my hands on Keirnan&#8217;s study of Samlaut, but it&#8217;s on my list of texts to get hold of soon.</p>
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		<title>By: lb</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>lb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-164</guid>
		<description>&quot;I personally believe their efforts in finding a path to communism were sincere and that their vast infrastructural program was for bringing eventual modernity to the country with the creation of some sort of ‘transitional’ socialist state within a national framework&quot;

Yes, you&#039;re quite right -  and this is the particular bit people always fail to understand: the Khmer Rouge were &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; seeking to create some kind of anti-intellectual agrarian utopia, and when even the BBC parrots this kind of &#039;analysis&#039; it makes me want to bang my head against the nearest wall. As you said elsewhere, an individual&#039;s reconfigurability for manual work - whether they were an intellectual or not -  was ideologically significant to the KR, and they were suspicious of &#039;foreign&#039; intellectual influence, but ultimately they were looking to drag the country &lt;i&gt;out of&lt;/i&gt; the Stone Age (in which it had been kept by a combination of French regional policy, Sihanouk&#039;s conception of the Cambodian peasantry&#039;s ambitions, and lastly thousands of tons of American explosive) rather than send it back there. Moreover, they were attempting to do so without outside help, even at a terrible cost, and here&#039;s where the unique mix of domestic influences, whether  positive or repressive - Thanh, Sihanouk, Khmer conceptions of nationhood, etc etc - become most important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I personally believe their efforts in finding a path to communism were sincere and that their vast infrastructural program was for bringing eventual modernity to the country with the creation of some sort of ‘transitional’ socialist state within a national framework&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, you&#8217;re quite right &#8211;  and this is the particular bit people always fail to understand: the Khmer Rouge were <i>not</i> seeking to create some kind of anti-intellectual agrarian utopia, and when even the BBC parrots this kind of &#8216;analysis&#8217; it makes me want to bang my head against the nearest wall. As you said elsewhere, an individual&#8217;s reconfigurability for manual work &#8211; whether they were an intellectual or not &#8211;  was ideologically significant to the KR, and they were suspicious of &#8216;foreign&#8217; intellectual influence, but ultimately they were looking to drag the country <i>out of</i> the Stone Age (in which it had been kept by a combination of French regional policy, Sihanouk&#8217;s conception of the Cambodian peasantry&#8217;s ambitions, and lastly thousands of tons of American explosive) rather than send it back there. Moreover, they were attempting to do so without outside help, even at a terrible cost, and here&#8217;s where the unique mix of domestic influences, whether  positive or repressive &#8211; Thanh, Sihanouk, Khmer conceptions of nationhood, etc etc &#8211; become most important.</p>
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		<title>By: Pineapple</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>Pineapple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-163</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m shaking like a skinny shitting dog.  She&#039;s so &#039;cutting edge&#039; in the liberal meejah that she no doubt considers Adam Curtis a worthy successor to Guy Debord.  

I&#039;m off to eat my tea now.  Cottage Pie (sorry Christine), in fact.  

But, because I&#039;m working class I made it using one of them packet mixes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m shaking like a skinny shitting dog.  She&#8217;s so &#8216;cutting edge&#8217; in the liberal meejah that she no doubt considers Adam Curtis a worthy successor to Guy Debord.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m off to eat my tea now.  Cottage Pie (sorry Christine), in fact.  </p>
<p>But, because I&#8217;m working class I made it using one of them packet mixes.</p>
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		<title>By: Robespierre</title>
		<link>http://padevat.info/2009/12/04/son-ngoc-thanh-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator>Robespierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://padevat.info/?p=817#comment-162</guid>
		<description>Has Rhoda violated you again with her razor-sharp wit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Rhoda violated you again with her razor-sharp wit?</p>
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